There are 40k naturalisations each year (a similar number relative to population as in the US). Around 13% of the Swiss citizens have acquired the nationality via naturalisation (8% in the US).
How many people born in CH never become Swiss? Because for the US, that number is ~0%.
And before you say: "well the US have different rules", well, ok, but then don't compare us to the US on the other number either, compare us to other EU countries with similar types of rules but different implementations.
CH has stricter naturalization laws than many EU countries and CH has mandatory military service which discourages many males from naturalizing, even those born in the country.
About one third. That would bring the fraction of naturalised foreign-born citizens in line with the US (which is also a kind-of-hard place to get citizenship, that's true).
> CH has mandatory military service which discourages many males from naturalizing
That doesn't make it difficult, it makes it undesirable and suggests that many people could get it but choose not to.
> Only if Berlin starts handing out German passports do they dictate EU immigration single-handedly
Fair enough and great point.
It’s incredibly hard to naturalize in Switzerland. Less so in Germany. (Though still much harder than in America, at least based on my American friends who naturalized there and this Swiss of Indian and Germanic origin who naturalized in America.) It’s fair for those countries to want to maintain those differences.
> It’s incredibly hard to naturalize in Switzerland. Less so in Germany
Is it? Asking out of curiosity, from a cursory look both countries require self-sufficiency, language (in fact Switzerland looks a little easier on this), no criminal background, an integration test to be taken (and both seem easy) and time in the country.
Only major difference seems to me is Germany takes 5 years in paper (more like 6-7 in reality with bureaucracy) and Switzerland takes 10 years in paper.
In Switzerland they are voting on naturalisation... which means you are at the whim of people living in the same place. If you don't fit in you'll have a hard time, if they don't like you for whatever reason etc, wrong hair colour, you name it. In Germany it's an administrative act with clear demands.
We are both correct in a way.
Local authorities can still decide applications. It's no longer a secret ballot but naturalisation commissions, local councils, municipal parliaments, or assemblies.
Some decisions still make headlines though because the reasons are rather weird sometimes.
Some countries print them out very liberally though. Sweden did not require financial self-sufficiency or language ability until like 2 weeks ago. I raised this point back in like 2015 and was promptly called a racist. So these have been handed to people who have nothing to do with the country. Few other countries have done this too but less so. Now all their children etc. will have unfettered access to Switzerland.
Tbh I cannot see anything else but Swiss people at some point voting themselves out of this somehow.
Your comments do land on the xenophobic side though.
E.g."Indians with German passports": You need to pass a naturalization and language tests before applying for citizenship. Until recently you couldn't even apply without living in the country for 6+ years - now reduced to 4+. So how do you or potential Swiss know they are Indians? The first thing that comes to mind is that you're assuming it by the way they look.
Eh, my PM has been in Switzerland for 8 years and it's still very obvious he's Indian from his accent, from his restaurant preferences and from his choice of holiday destinations... Just like I've been here 10 and it's still obvious I'm an Aussie. You can legally naturalize, but you will never truly be like a kid who grew up there in their formative years.
You can get housing, you have to trade money for time and commute with the (frequent and reliable) public transportation.
Meanwhile the parlement and the anti+immigration far-right vote all the time to increase landlord rights and margins. Most of them are landlords, of course...
I mean, Kt. ZH also had the Wohnungsinitiative today, because not even Swiss people can find housing in ZH anymore.
Let’s be realistic and admit that landlords already prioritize someone with history of renting in the country and it’s pretty fair to say that new immigrants will struggle to get housing. Even if you come on a FAANG salary, you will not be able to buy your way in that easily.
The Swiss have votations all the time. They also can vote by mail. Those who didn't vote had no opinion, or no strong opinion, on the matter.
Also, cities who should suffer the most of overcrowding by immigrants voted against, as well as cantons situated at the border, while the backcountry who never see any immigrant voted in favor.
Overcrowding by immigrants does not mean the location will vote in favor of restricting immigration. After all, those are the places with the highest number of immigrant voters, who will not support such restrictions.
Immigrants can't vote on federal votations, dumbass.
And it takes more than a decade to have a chance at trying to get naturalized in Switzerland - a process that takes more than a year and thousands of CHF.
And naturalized immigrants have been shown to be ready to "pull the ladder behind them", even in countries where it is easier to get it (see the many interviews of Turks voting AfD in Germany or Indians voting Conservative in the UK).
If you think people who waited more than a decade and paid a hefty sum to affirm their will to be citizens are second-class (or maybe even traitors!) compared to people who became citizen by making no effort and were just born that way...
I recently got the Swiss passport but I'm still very much an immigrant. I am also a dual citizen, and frankly, hold not much love for this country. It's a secondary thing to me, the way having a nice car is: yeah it's nice, yeah I wouldn't want to give it up, but no it's not my identity and it's not the end of the world, despite me possessing it.
I did not "wait" for it. I came here, worked a bunch, made more money than I would've in my home country, and got the passport mostly so that I can have a refuge in case of severe war, and to have better travel opportunities.
Blame me all you want, I'm giving you the honest view many (most?) of us have, that you won't hear in society for obvious reasons. Lifelong culture, values, family, and friends do not change because a person worked in a given country for N years and filled some paperwork to get a passport, and to think otherwise is NONSENSE.
Not everyone has a mentality of mercenary like you and your circle of "friends".
> to think otherwise is NONSENSE.
Is it, or are you just scared shitless to have had the wrong outlook on life all your life, and don't want to even entertain the idea lest your whole psyche be revealed as a hollow valueless shell?
+1 to your last point. The best you can hope for as a country is to select immigrants who align better with your ideals than with their home countries'. I think that's why Americans think integration is so easy - because immigrants to America deliberately choose America for its well known ideals. Whereas overland refugees aren't choosing Switzerland or even Europe this way, they are just coming because it's next door.
Yeah, I mostly agree, except that I didn't come to Switzerland because it's next door, but because I was sick of working hard and making no money in my home country - and it was either Switzerland or the US. I had offers from both, but chose Switzerland because at the time I was still brainwashed by the legacy media and believed that the US is hell on Earth (which I regret now)
> If you think people who waited more than a decade and paid a hefty sum to affirm their will to be citizens are second-class (or maybe even traitors!)
I don't think so. Do you?
(Edit: I don't object to using 'immigrant' in a different way. But when someone said that in the places with more immigration there will also be more immigrant voters it was pretty clear in what sense the word was being used. Dumbass.)
Citizens with immigration background have been in the country for 10+ years, because 10 is the minimum for getting citizenship, at which point their voting patterns are more likely to be influenced by other factors and not their immigrant background.
Plus, it’s a bit of a phenomenon that many citizens with immigrant background’s tend to vote for stricter immigration policies.
The issue is this means in aggregate only around 3-5% of the total population needs to flip in it's opinions for CHexit to happen - which is very doable over two election cycles.
A 55% win with 58% turnout despite how this vote was front and center of media discourse is very worrisome as this shows how disengaged the other 42% are.
> in aggregate only around 3-5% of the total population needs to flip in it's opinions for CHexit to happen
If the marketing were less xenophobic and the cap were derived from some scientific basis, I think I could be persuaded to vote for it. Particularly since it is not a vote for Chexit, but a democratic vote to confront the EU. (Britain triggered Article 50. Nothing in this referendum directs Berne to do that.)
In what way? It is a vote to adopt a policy that is in breach of your international treaty obligations. Unilaterally breaching your obligations is not a grounds for discussion or compromise, it is simply an exit from them, benefits included.
Suppose you're not getting on with your roommate. You could talk to them and try to resolve the problems, or you could default on your lease and receive an eviction notice from the landlord. You are opting for the latter. That is not "confronting" anything, it is a done deal. It is a choice you are allowed to make, to be clear, just as the Brits did, but let's not pretend it's something it isn't.
> It is a vote to adopt a policy that is in breach of your international treaty obligations
It was a vote to renegotiate them under threat of disavowing them. That’s fine.
> You could talk to them and try to resolve the problems, or you could default on your lease and receive an eviction notice from the landlord
It’s totally fair, during those talks, to make clear that if you can’t reach an agreement on the roommate not doing their dishes, you’re prepared to move out. (That doesn’t commit you to moving out if they refuse to budge.)
> That doesn’t commit you to moving out if they refuse to budge
The vote did commit you to amending your federal constitution with a population cap, period.
> If the 10-million threshold is exceeded, Switzerland would have to terminate these agreements, including the one with the EU on the free movement of persons after two years. This would also render the other agreements under Bilateral Agreements I null and void. Switzerland’s participation in the EU’s Schengen and Dublin agreements would also be called into question, thereby jeopardising close cooperation in the areas of security and asylum.
There is no room for negotiation in it. The government page itself spells out the hardline consequences.
But I suppose that's how these votes have to be marketed, isn't it? The Brits were under the delusion that they'd get to have their cake and eat it too, that they could keep any benefits of being in the EU even as they exited it. I wonder how many Swiss were aware they were voting to end their own freedom of movement, that blocking EU immigration would mean they would no longer be able to move elsewhere in the EU themselves. Which, again, is valid if that's the intention, but I suspect a lot of voters like yourself rather believed they were only voting to end freedom of movement for brown foreigners, or voting to negotiate special privileges, when in actuality it was literally a vote to exit treaties.
> no room for negotiation in it. The government page itself spells out the hardline consequences
There is always room for negotiation. Bilaterals is a treaty, not a diktat. And again, 2 years provides time for another referendum.
> wonder how many Swiss were aware they were voting to end their own freedom of movement, that blocking EU immigration would mean they would no longer be able to move elsewhere in the EU themselves
Everyone did. The question was how the Guillotine clauses would be executed. Which, truly, nobody knows.
The "diktat" is the thing you just voted on which says "we will not negotiate". There is always room for negotiation until you vote for a law that says "no negotiations, we are now legally mandated to do X".
> 2 years provides time for another referendum.
Voting for a no-negotiations amendment to your constitution as a negotiation tactic with the idea that you will later pass another constitutional amendment in a small window of time to revoke it is some kind of 4D checkers strategising that I suppose I am not enlightened enough to grasp.
> There is always room for negotiation until you vote for a law that says "no negotiations, we are now legally mandated to do X”
Which isn’t a thing for a sovereign. Past sovereigns can’t bind future ones. Laws can always be repealed.
> some kind of 4D checkers strategising that I suppose I am not enlightened enough to grasp
Neither was I. Hence my vote against. Doesn’t mean the core concept is flawed, or that we have to accept EU treaties as perpetual because my ancestors voted for it to be that way.
The party that proposed this vote has always opposed the treaties with the EU and yes this whole thing is just a thinly disguised way to repudiate the treaties as soon as practicable. They know what they are getting, it's not a cake-and-eat-it-too thing.
> Particularly since it is not a vote for Chexit, but a democratic vote to confront the EU
To confront the EU on an absolute red line, yes.
The EC is already not thrilled with the Switzerland situation and was fairly clear that it would not allow the UK to negotiate something similar; it is unlikely that it would allow Switzerland to make the deal _worse_. At a certain point it'd just cast off Switzerland entirely.
If the UK (70 million people) was unable to get the EC to move on this, it seems implausible that Switzerland (9 million) would be able to.
> withdraw from the bilaterals 2 years after exceeding 10m if they couldn't be renegotiated
Sure. This is two years down the road. And it is not Article 50. It would cause a shitshow. But that shitshow could be averted and is less comprehensive than directing an EU exit.
Remember how Brexit started? Cameron wanted to renegotiate the terms of Britain's EU membership.
Of course, those negotiations didn't go anywhere, because the EU has a limited ability to make concessions. Any comprehensive deal must be approved unanimously by all member states and some subnational entities. And that just doesn't happen, unless the proposed deal is clearly better than the status quo.
I mean technically, it was also rejected by the Kantons-as-entities so if that 5% is unevenly spread, theoretically it could still be rejected by Kantonal majority…
While it is not at all practical to train an LLM with tens or hundreds of billions of parameters on hobbyists hardware, what if there are other architectures that perform just as well but are easier to train by 1000 volunteers?
I always wondered if 1000 1M parameter models fine-tuned to specific tasks with a small router could perform as well as 100B models.
And I know this is roughly how MoE works, but current MoE models still require training the model as a whole, and big players don’t have an incentive to change that.
Nah, dollars buy war machines. And for the first time in human history, we are on the precipice of projecting substantial ground force without the need for humans.
Arguably, they don't take one in the chest. Luigi Mangione lives in notoriety what he did; most people can't even name the CEO he killed, let alone frame them as a martyr.
I disagree with theories of continual revolution, but it's pretty clear that class warfare still has valuable asymmetric qualities.
He is banned from public speaking in Germany and only Germany. Which the Germans can do to anyone on their own territory, including German citizens.
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