> The way this position conforms to the interests of the capital class, and conflicts with those of the labor class, is a red flag.
If being in the office conforms to the interest of the capital class, it implies that WFH is inherently less efficient.
This is one of those things that I often find strange with work from home advocates. They seem to imply that business owners just want employees to suffer as a goal in itself.
1) A lot of executive type work _is_ easier in person... and those executives forget that their work might not be representative of _other_ roles within their own org, and they might actually be the outlier.
2) A lot of managers don't know how to manage by looking at output. We see this not just with WFH, but also with multi-location teams, where some managers simply can't do it competently.
3) Many managers do, in fact, get some satisfaction from having that sort of power over their workers.
4) Many executives like having an office that is a bit of a tribute to the company (and therefore their) power. And this falls apart if the office is empty.
That's not necessarily true, though. For instance, real estate investors have a lot to lose from vacant office space and therefore would benefit from RTO.
I personally find that I enjoy in person collaboration but that should not mean we should universally force every team to come back to the office.
I never understood this argument. Most companies do not own their office buildings, but rather lease space from corporate landlords. It is in the best interest of these companies to dramatically reduce their lease burden via WFH. Why would a company totally unrelated to real estate investment act against its own self-interest just to prop up real estate investors?
The argument (which may or may not be valid, just explaining it) is that companies do not lease space (or take any action), people do. And the same individuals who are able to make leasing decisions for office space are co-invested in commercial real estate; even if the company doesn’t benefit from maintaining an expensive office, the C suite might; and if so, then of course that’s the decision that will be made.
>[T]he same individuals who are able to make leasing decisions for office space are co-invested in commercial real estate
But those individuals are much bigger shareholders in the company they work for. Downsizing the office footprint of a single company has a tiny marginal effect on the overall real estate market, but can incur enormous savings for the company, and enormous personal rewards to the people making the decision to downsize and save money.
Individuals are notoriously bad at considering collective externalities. If a CFO realizes that they could save tens of millions of dollars per year on real estate by switching to remote-only, they’re not going to then think “but if everyone did this, it would hurt the commercial real estate holdings I have in my portfolio.” No, the CFO is thinking “announcing that we’re saving 8 figures per annum on real estate is going to pop the share price of my company (and thus my equity holdings), and likely net me a really fat cash bonus.” By similar logic, CTOs, who likely have considerable technology investments, would want to needlessly maximize tech spend. Instead, they get lauded for cutting IT costs.
This is a weird conspiracy theory. You'd have to believe that real estate investors were pulling the strings in companies to get them to spend more money with no upside. Like they're just milking these companies for rent and the companies are doing it because they want to give money to the real estate investors?
Even in the rare case where real estate investors are also investors in the startup, my experience is that the startup gets reduced-rate rent as a bonus.
That's not what I believe. Other posters have explained it well, but to respond myself:
1. Some large tech companies are also large real estate funds. Google had >100B$ in real estate positions (although mixed between datacenters and office parks) [0]. So its not that they are milked for rent, but more that they would be loosing some money here, although not much.
2. People making decisions are also probably invested in the real estate market, and therefore have money to loose from a collapse of real estate value.
I also gave more thought to it, and I don't see it as impossible that WFH reduces employee's productivity (from the perspective of the employer). However, that is also true of other worker's rights like vacation time or sick leave. RTO mandates are an act of control of workers, from the managing class, and pushing it as "because of productivity" does not change that.
And again: I personally like working more from an office. I don't want to force others to follow my preferences.
I don't doubt what you're saying, but I don't these situations where real estate investors and company investors overlap and also want to micromanage the company's operations are common.
The way this is brought up as a general explanation for RTO across the industry is getting a little silly
Office Real Estate used to be looked at as a very reliable investment. Good return for fixed income and reasonably safe when diversified across geographic locations. So lots of investment houses used REITs for some of their investments, pension funds, investment banks, even those companies that also invest in risky software startups. So you have this idea that there is a person called a "real estate investor", but really the majority of the people who invest money have some stake in office real estate. And those investments got crushed post-COVID. And they are salty about it and blame (probably correctly) remote work. Doesn't matter though, they took the risk and this time it didn't pan out for them so they don't have a real platform to complain. So they do this nonsense and trick a journalist into writing a hit piece.
> They seem to imply that business owners just want employees to suffer as a goal in itself.
No, it’s more that they want to steal from employees by not paying for all the time lost to commuting and the impact of living near a few pricey locations. That theft is suffering.
There’s some research that suggests WFH is less efficient per hour worked, but people work more hours that they would have otherwise wasted commuting so it’s a wash.
That said, the motivations of managers are seldom aligned with the interests of the business. There is such a thing as ego trips. Also, mediocre or insecure managers will rely more on the crutch of face time.
The interests of the capital class are not necessarily aligned with efficient allocation of capital. Note this is far from saying they want employees to suffer, but they install inefficient policies over them.
It's even worse. The capital class is disconnected from employees because they have the managerial class running the business, so it's actually the managerial class that creates the employee experience. But, it turns out that "the capital class" has a large component of 401k funds, and so "the capital class" has a very large component of small shareholders, and so they don't really even have any influence whatsoever.
"If being in the office conforms to the interest of the capital class, it implies that WFH is inherently less efficient"
only if the capital class is solely motivated by efficiency. I think this is trivially demonstrable to be not the case.
The capital class's primary interest is self-preservation - both of their capital, of course, but also preserving their place in the pecking order. And they'll spend a LOT of the former to maintain the latter because the latter is how they got the former.
Through that lens, GP's point is perfectly coherent.
"They seem to imply that business owners just want employees to suffer as a goal in itself."
Have you met... people? Yes there are literally many owners who do want employees to suffer. Or, perhaps worse, will tolerate tremendous amounts of suffering in the pursuit of minor other gains. (Amazon pee bottles come to mind.) It would somehow be a comforting kind of moustache-twirling comic book evil to say they just want people to suffer. Another to say they simply don't value human happiness (or lack of suffering) enough to not trade large amounts of it for small things they do care about.
I had a boss who was only willing to hire non-whites because he could inflict undesirable work on them, leaving more desirable work for the white employees.
I just want to end this by remarking that this presumption of owners being perfectly optimal, morally clean agents of free markets is absurd and honestly disgusting to bring to an argument.
> This is one of those things that I often find strange with work from home advocates. They seem to imply that business owners just want employees to suffer as a goal in itself.
I've worked remote a lot and I'm a big fan. I find it hard to discuss WFH online because it's so hard to find people willing to discuss it honestly, including the challenges. The way it's talked about here and on sites like Reddit is as if WFH is perfect, works for everyone, and the only reason we can't have more of it is because companies are hell-bent on doing things against their self interests.
I'm in another forum where we have a subforum for managers to talk, and remote work problems are a perennial topic. A lot of people really don't handle it well. There are even managers in the group who would prefer to work from home, but they've moved their teams into the office at least 2-3 days per week because their 5 day WFH experiments didn't go well.
It's a hard topic. I find myself holding back from discussing it because anything other than 100% pro-WFH anti-manager comments will get a lot of drive-by downvotes.
People haven’t responded to your very first point, and I want to really stress it because I don’t think most people really get it.
Margins.
Game development doesn’t pay more because game development companies can’t afford to pay more.
Sure, an individual game dev company may make a lot due to the hit driven nature of the field, but the totality of the market simply makes less money per developer than big tech does.
In order for that to change, the market has to increase in size by appealing to a more casual audience, or existing gamers have to pay more. Not something I think most gamers would like. And these are the people who the workforce of game developers form from.
> In order for that to change, the market has to increase in size by appealing to a more casual audience, or existing gamers have to pay more. Not something I think most gamers would like.
To really drive this point home, the gaming community recently lost their minds when it became clear that this generation of video games were going to retail for ~$90 per game. Never mind that even in the early 90’s an average game might retail for $40 and what we would call a AAA game could reach as high as $70. In 2025 gamers declared that $90 was highway robbery. But go look at the credits for an early 90s video game. That $40-90 per unit in the early 90s might need to cover the salaries of 23 people (the size of the credits list for Super Mario World on the SNES). Now $90 has to cover 435 people (the credit list for Super Mario Wonder on the switch). Sure we’re selling a lot more copies now, and (some of) the manufacturing costs are lower. But that’s a nearly 20x increase in personnel for a mere 2x increase in (non inflation adjusted) price.
It's also amortized over a much longer period of time too. Those 23 people would scratch build that $40 game in 2 years. These days it's more like 8 years, and you're rarely building from scratch.
> In order for that to change, the market has to increase in size by appealing to a more casual audience, or existing gamers have to pay more.
The fun part of all this is that when union demands start forcing the industry in the opposite direction - higher cost, higher prices, smaller market. In a sane world, we would connect this, but in this world, we will just blame management. The union will forever have an invincible PR shield no matter how crazy the demand.
While I fundamentally agree with the concern about unions raising costs in a market where most titles cannot absorb them, GTA/Rockstar definitely can. Especially since the union is fighting for basic quality of life like no crunch instead of (for now at least) increased pay. I am generally not prounion but crunch -- especially at studios that are guaranteed to be profitable (GTA) -- needs to be curbed.
In what world are unions never criticised? I'm in the UK and they are often reviled in the press and among people who don't work in a unionised sector. America has an even stronger tradition of anti-union feeling (maybe partly due to historic links between unions and organised crime but also because the US has often had a stronger collectivisation than most European countries - consider that the political centre in the US would be considered into right wing in most Western countries on most issues)
Also games are for leisure. The same thing is true in Hollywood—hundreds of crew members getting paid small wages relative to their long hours and a few stars getting millions.
My point was we know those are decent margin industries and video games aren't any more expensive, but anyway you usually look at 20% margin in the industry give or take 10% depending on the scale and particularly advertising costs at large scales.
See my further reply, margin of 20% give or take 10% depending on scale (on average, some products obviously have incredibly high or low margins as is typical in the creative industry).
My point about revenue was that games are pulling in more money than film and TV and we all know they cost less to make, and film and TV has good pay so therefore the games industry can afford similar rates, if not more.
Hmm compared to film/entertainment yes, but from the perspective of an individual developer worker, your alternatives are not just in film/entertainment
The main reason is that employees will quit. It's not illegal in the US, but it still almost never happens. Companies would rather lay off than risk alienating employees like that.
> I guess the question is, since we know these things can happen, however unlikely, what mitigations should be in place that are commensurate with the harms that might result?
This isn't a defence of using LLMs like this, but this statement taken at face value is a source of a lot of terrible things in the world.
This is the kind of stuff that leads to a world where kids are no longer able to play outside.
This is the kind of misinformation that makes people more wary of floats than they should be.
The same series of operations with the same input will always produce exactly the same floating point results. Every time. No exceptions.
Hardware doesn't matter. Breed of CPU doesn't matter. Threads don't matter. Scheduling doesn't matter. IEEE floating point is a standard. Everyone follows the standard. Anything not producing indentical results for the same series of operations is *broken*.
What you are referring to is the result of different compilers doing a different series of operations than each other. In particular, if you are using the x87 fp unit, MSVC will round 80-bit floating point down to 32/64 bits before doing a comparison, and GCC will not by default.
Compliers doesn't even use 80-bit FP by default when compiling for 64 bit targets, so this is not a concern anymore, and hasn't been for a very long time.
There's just so many "but"s to this that I can't in good faith recommend people to treat floats as deterministic, even though I'd very much love to do so (and I make such assumptions myself, caveat emptor):
- NaN bits are non-deterministic. x86 and ARM generate different sign bits for NaNs. Wasm says NaN payloads are completely unpredictable.
- GPUs don't give a shit about IEEE-754 and apply optimizations raging from DAZ to -ffast-math.
- sin, rsqrt, etc. behave differently when implemented by different libraries. If you're linking libm for sin, you can get different implementations depending on the libc in use. Or you can get different results on different hardware.
- C compilers are allowed to "optimize" a * b + c to FMA when they wish to. The standard only technically allows this merge within one expression, but GCC enables this in all cases by default on some `-std`s.
You're technically correct that floats can be used right, but it's just impossible to explain to a layman that, yes, floats are fine on CPUs, but not on GPUs; fine if you're doing normal arithmetic and sqrt, but not sin or rsqrt; fine on modern compilers, but not old ones; fine on x86, but not i686; fine if you're writing code yourself, but not if you're relying on linear algebra libraries, unless of course you write `a * b + c` and compile with the wrong options; fine if you rely on float equality, but not bitwise equality; etc. Everything is broken and the entire thing is a mess.
Yes, there are a large number of ways to fall into traps that cause you to do a different series of operations when you didn't realise that you did. But that's still ultimately what all your examples are. (Except the NaN thing!)
I still think it's important to fight the misinformation.
Programmers have been conditioned to be so afraid of floats that many believe that doing a + b has an essentially random outcome when it doesn't work that way at all. It leads people to spend a bunch of effort on things that they don't need to be doing.
Cars are not popular becuase people pushed them. Cars are popular because the utility is undeniable.
This is true for any kind of transformative technology. Marketing and lobbying can only get you so far. If something has enough utility, it will be used regardless of what people say they want.
> Cars are not popular becuase people pushed them. Cars are popular because the utility is undeniable.
I think this is somewhat of a chicken and egg problem. Cars' utility is undeniable partially because society has twisted itself thoroughly around The Car being an assumed part of it. This societal change was both pulled (by car customers) and pushed (by car manufacturers).
Yes absolutely—I think cars have obvious utility as machines, but there has now been 100 years of building everything around them and changing laws in such a way that encourages their use: through direct and indirect subsidy, land use rules that largely outlaw building cities in any way other than sprawl that itself increases the importance and utility of cars, and various other preferential regulations that often tolerate the harms in a way that is not applied elsewhere (c.f. panic over e-bike safety vs American highway safety overall).
Cars won because they were (and are) better than the alternatives. The need for powerful individual transportation with utility has always existed, and was originally met with horses. Bicycles meet the transportation need, but not the need for utility. Cars do both, and they do it better than anything else. Even before fueling infrastructure was rolled out, you could still run a car on petroleum you bought from the chemist, which is still infinitely better than the acres of pasture you need for horses. If you had an early diesel, it would run on oil, which is even easier.
The idea that cars needed all this infrastructure that other alternatives didn't just doesn't match the reality of the history of the automobile. And yes, we've leaned on those advantages in the century since, which has also created vast areas where a car is necessary to participate in society, but we only did so because the advantages and utility were so undeniable.
Because you can't adopt that syntax after the fact. there is 30 years of C++ in the real world, initializing everything by default unless you opt-in will break some performance critical code that should not initialize everything (until it is updated manually - it has to be manual because tools are not smart enough to know where something was intentionally not initialized 100% of the time)
Thus the current erroneous. It means this isn't a bug (compilers used to optimized out code paths where an uninitialized value is read and this did cause real world bugs when it doesn't matter what value is read). It also means the compiler is free to put whatever value they want there - one of the goals was the various sanitizers that check for using uninitialized values need to still work - the vast majority of the time when an uninitialized value is read that is a bug in the code.
There are a lot of situations where a compiler cannot tell if a variable would be used uninitialized, so we can't rely on compiler warnings (it sometimes needs solving the halting problem).
> There are a lot of situations where a compiler cannot tell if a variable would be used uninitialized, so we can't rely on compiler warnings (it sometimes needs solving the halting problem).
It's an explicit choice in C++ to always accept correct programs (the alternative being to always reject incorrect programs†). The committee does not have to stick by this bad decision in each C++ version, of course they aren't likely to stop making the same bad choice, but it is possible to do so.
If you're allowed to take the other side, you can of course (Rust and several other languages do this) reject programs where the compiler isn't satisfied that you definitely always initialize the variable before it's value is needed. Most obviously (but it's pretty annoying, so Rust does not do this) you could insist on the initialization as part of the variable definition in the actual syntax.
† You can't have both, by Rice's Theorem, Henry Rice got his PhD for figuring out how to prove this, last century, long before C++ was conceived. So you must pick, one or the other.
> Because you can't adopt that syntax after the fact.
The `= void` syntax can be because it is currently not valid.
D (unlike C++) always has a default initializer, but does not allow a default constructor. This is sometimes controversial, but it heads off all kinds of problems.
The default initializer for floating point values is NaN. (And for chars it is 0xFF.) The point of this is for the value to not "happen" to work.)
> there is 30 years of C++ in the real world, initializing everything by default unless you opt-in will break some performance critical code that should not initialize everything
...But the change to EB in this case does initialize everything by default?
No it doesn't. It says the value is unspecified but it exists. Sometimes some compilers did initialize everything (this was common in debug builds) before. Some of them will in the future, but most won't do anything difference.
The only difference is some optimizer used to eliminate code paths where they could prove that path would read an uninitialized variable - causing a lot of weird bugs in the real world.
The precise value is not specified, but whatever value is picked also has to be something that isn't tied to the state of the program so some kind of initialization needs to take place.
Furthermore, the proposal explicitly states that (some) variables are initialized by default:
> Default-initialization of an automatic-storage object initializes the object with a fixed value defined by the implementation
> The automatic storage for an automatic variable is always fully initialized, which has potential performance implications.
> The automatic storage for an automatic variable is always fully initialized, which has potential performance implications.
We use floating point operations with deterministic lockstep with a server compiled on GCC in Linux a windows client compiled with MSVC in windows, and an iOS client running on ARM which I believe is compiled with clang.
Works fine.
This is a not a small code base, and no particular care has been taken with the floating point operations used.
If being in the office conforms to the interest of the capital class, it implies that WFH is inherently less efficient.
This is one of those things that I often find strange with work from home advocates. They seem to imply that business owners just want employees to suffer as a goal in itself.
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